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Ingo Mierswa
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« Reply #15 on: November 23, 2013, 11:32:47 PM »

This is the great thing about having options and living in a modern world:  You are free to choose whatever suits you needs best.  And if staying with the previous version is the best thing for you this is great!  That’s why we offered this option in the first place.  I am a happy man that I finally managed to make even you happy…   Wink

I do of course not agree with your assessment of RapidMiner 6 but here again I cannot force you to like it.  Here are good reasons to use it for all others:

  • Application wizards make predictive analytics accessible to everyone, particularly business managers and business analysts.  And even experienced users can efficiently build complete solutions by using the underlying processes as a starting point.  We started with the 4 most common applications but more and more applications will be added over time.
  • Completely revised reviews of data, statistics, and other results.  RapidMiner now produces a selection of charts and visualizations automatically, choosing the most appropriate settings based on data properties.  With this anyone can produce professional-looking data visualizations in minutes.
  • The new statistics view allows users to sort and filter the most important statistics for their data for a quick, high-level overview.  You can then drill down and produce full statistics for each column, distribution charts and additional advanced information.  Color-coding makes it easier to find the predicted values or confidences for predictions out of very large data sets.
  • Improved usability for process design, e.g. more automated process fixes.  Also improved the user experience on Mac.
  • Improved export and print options.
  • Completely revised the Filter Example operator making it now much easier and faster to set up filters.
  • New tutorials.
  • Dozens of performance improvements and bug fixes.
  • Finally our new licensing framework allows all editions of RapidMiner Studio to contain all features as opposed to different community and enterprise versions in the past – bringing all enterprise features for both Studio and Server to ALL users, even for those of the free and not-time-limited Starter edition. This includes the web-based reporting, profilers, new data editors and much more.

We have gotten a lot of very positive feedback on RM 6 so far but if the list above is not attractive for you: Perfectly fine with me…

Cheers,
Ingo

P.S.:  More information is also available in our FAQ at http://rapid-i.com/rapidforum/index.php/topic,7405.0.html as well in our press release at http://rapidminer.com/news-posts/rapidminer-v6-0/
« Last Edit: November 24, 2013, 04:08:36 AM by Ingo Mierswa » Logged

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haddock
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« Reply #16 on: November 23, 2013, 11:47:23 PM »

Hi again,

Not sure that answered my question. To use few words and to be clear, these benefits will not apply to database miners unless they pay Euros 900?

H
« Last Edit: November 23, 2013, 11:50:04 PM by haddock » Logged

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Ingo Mierswa
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« Reply #17 on: November 24, 2013, 12:16:33 AM »

Quote
Why not stay with 5 and keep the money ?
How could my answer above possible NOT answer your question?  Huh

Anyway, short question, short answer:

Quote
these benefits will not apply to database miners unless they pay Euros 900?

Not until RM 7 is released.

Since I talked about options before and you seem to want a short description of those, here we go:

  • Price-savvy users ("Give me the free stuff"):  RM 5 (Community Edition) or RM 6 Starter - both completely free and unlimited in time.  RM 5 without the new benefits but on larger data sets / all sources.  RM 6 with new benefits but restricted to smaller data sets / few data sources in the Starter Edition (can be upgraded - see below)
  • Professional users:  Multiple, easy to understand tiers to get the benefits described above with Personal, Professional, and Enterprise editions.  This makes it easier to let the software grow with your demands in contrast to just offering one single big, expensive package for everybody.

Hope that helps.

Cheers,
Ingo

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haddock
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« Reply #18 on: November 24, 2013, 12:53:31 AM »

G'Day Ingo!


Sorry to be picky on this but..

I was asking what the benefits of 6 actually are, given that database miners would have to pay for them. Your answer points to the templates to which I refer and other exciting benefits. For database miners these cost USD 999 each year.

But it doesn't stop there, does it? What about people whose problem solution needs more than 4G of RAM, they have to pay USD 2999 each year for the same benefits, and the cost for bigger than 8G is unmentioned. Looking over this forum this need is not rare, and can even be caused by the operators ( Association Rules ).

This amounts to "Big Data, big bills" vs "Big Data zero bills"; as you say we all have the freedom to choose, best to do it rationally, based on cool reflection upon costs and benefits, don't you think ?



PIP PIPH
« Last Edit: November 24, 2013, 01:39:37 AM by haddock » Logged

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Ingo Mierswa
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« Reply #19 on: November 24, 2013, 04:08:09 AM »

And I thought already that I finally managed to make you happy.  What was your point then with all the discussion about staying with RM 5 in the first place?  Actually no need to answer, we all know that you sometimes just love to argue  Tongue

More power comes with price.  This is true for almost all aspects of life.  To name a few examples:

  • Cars with more horse power
  • Faster internet connections
  • Faster computers for quicker calculations
  • Larger database systems paid per CPU or node

I could go on forever.  With the advent of cloud computing this is even more widely seen than ever before:  It is absolute normal to pay more for more powerful instances on, for example, Amazon AWS and hence often also more for the software running on those.  As we both know, you have easily accepted to pay more for better hardware since your existing one has not been sufficient for your analysis, but you are not accepting this for your software?  Interesting, to say the least.

I believe all has been said about this.  You found your option, others will find theirs.  I am sure everybody will make a rational decision even without your support.

Best,
Ingo
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haddock
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« Reply #20 on: November 24, 2013, 01:59:09 PM »

Hi there Ingo,

That sort of ad hominem stuff ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem ) actually detracts from a good story badly told.

I'm genuinely interested in software pricing strategies, as we now have our own GPU cloud pushing output in close to realtime over websockets, and we are trying to find reasonable pricing strategies for customised ( templated ) versions of the analysis. Here's PWC on the subject. (http://www.pwc.com/gx/en/technology/pdf/new-state-of-the-art.pdf)

Quote
Executive summary
The current state of pricing in the software
industry is, to put it mildly, chaotic.
Although vendors have pricing policies and
strategies, they often fail to enforce them.
More commonly, they change their pricing
approaches from one deal to the next, based
on a combination of past sales, limited
customer information and minimal insight into
competitors’ prices.

There's quite a neat summary of the dollar end at http://electronicdesign.com/embedded/dirty-little-secret-software-pricing .

I go along with the general drift of the latter's conclusions, namely that whatever model you pick it needs to be open, fair, and clear. In RM's case it would seem openly fair and clear that the bigger your problem, and the bigger your audience, then then the bigger the perceived value delivered. Part of our service buys in software as a service on exactly this basis, metered software, no problem.

But in that case they run the servers, the software, and guarantee service levels. RM is bound to have problems re-positioning into that cloud land from the more traditional DIY ( download it yourself ) landscape, and being clear about pricing strategy may just help.

Not at all simple, this money lark, I'm off to the pub for a proper row!

Best

H
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Where is the wisdom we have lost in knowledge?
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julio
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« Reply #21 on: November 24, 2013, 07:10:00 PM »

Dear all,

I think this thread is moving in the wrong direction, and I do think there is a lot of interest here for the real topics.

To Haddock: indeed, apparently if you need DB support for import, stick with RM 5. It´s a business decision taken by Rapid-I and we can have our own feelings about this, but its their prerogative. As a side remark: the PWC article was OK for a background get-in-touch. I actually think the articles referenced by Ingo on business sourcing were considerably more instructive.

To Ingo: Thank you for the quick reaction to initial sub-optimal communication. Highly appreciated.

Getting back on track:

Could Rapid-I (sorry for sticking to the old name for now) say something about potential continued support for RM 5? Specifically:
1. If the community finds bugs, will Rapid-I take action? Or can the community submit solutions that will be incorporated by Rapid-I? Please let us know what your strategy is here. If you stop support, and certainly I am NOT suggesting this, then possibly a fork would be the way to go. Still, I don´t think this would be ideal to anyone midterm.
2. If the community creates extensions to RM 5, can these still be submitted to the marketplace? We actually submitted a request recently (free of charge contribution) and the feedback was that this was already incorporated in RM 6 (?)... Therefore my question.

Concerning RM 6:
3. we are using RM and for a number of projects I think that your personal commercial offer could fit. Again, can you please explain somewhere what the exact differences are between the various flavours, ideally with the whole licensing agreement?  I am willing to bet for a free RM version that what is on the web are not the only differences. If yes, I will commit to buy the personal version within the next three months...
4. Could you say anything about compatibility between RM 5 and RM 6? Some of our projects may not be compatible with RM6 licensing (connections to  GPL3 processes, financially, ...). So, anything you can say about this... We could be in a situation where we have to support both versions, or standardize on just one...
5. will it be possible to adapt (legally..) the code in RM6, let´s say enterprise edition? I.e. is there a right to modify?

Again, thank you for your efforts. I think the largest part of the community is eager to contribute in some way.

 Julio

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swapnilad
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« Reply #22 on: November 26, 2013, 07:04:56 AM »

Hi Ingo,

First of all a huge congratulations on the new leg of journey for all you guys at Rapidminer. Its surely well deserved milestone for creating such a fantastic application.
On the positive side, it is great to see that from Rapidminer 6, you are not restricting feature sets as per editions. This is a policy friendly to the developer community, who can use all the features to develop the processes. It is also consistent with most of the applications in the BI, Datawarehousing space...where the power to develop processes and code over the framework is given fully to the developer community. Pricing comes into place when these processes or code are used in a business deployment to gain a business benefit.
Also appreciate your policy of charging for computing power and on period basis, which is completely consistent with service oriented pricing rather than license oriented one that the  industry is turning to.
It does leave me wondering though as to why was this exception made where a feature connecting to a datasource...even an opensource database requires to pay an annual fee ?
While I respect this as business decision by Rapidminer,this is also in conflict with almost all other tools in this space...which allow datasource access including to Big data ones like Hive/Hadoop(which you allow only in Enterprise edition). The benefit they get is that it gives developers and modelers full power to develop the processes...and deploy them directly on a licensed server/ larger paid installation...giving their softwares larger adoption, which converts into more deployment licenses.
It almost seems like Rapidminer is scared that once all datasources are allowed, no one will buy the paid licenses and just use your software for free.
But isn't the 1GB RAM restriction sufficient(or even a 2GB if you ask me) to ensure the enterprises or service providers cannot use Rapidminer for free....but the developer and process modelers can? I would think this would increase the usage of Rapidminer among the development and process modeling community.
I agree...most of the developers would use the free version and not pay a dime. I think thats where its Rapidminer's call on if their revenue model is based on charging from business deployments, or also includes developer community in the revenue target.
For now frankly, I am very happy to see rest all advanced features coming right from the Starter edition which helps me develop processes for customers. I however cannot go with proof of concepts on my created standard datamodels to potential customers.

My sincere respect to kindly review the datasource policy.

Congratulations again and wish the very best to everyone at Rapidminer.

cheers,

Swapnil

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Ingo Mierswa
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« Reply #23 on: November 27, 2013, 04:38:06 AM »

Dear friends,
Sorry for the delay in answering.  I try to give a bit more of a background and feedback to your comments below.

@Julio

Thanks for your comments.  I try to give some insight into our support policy for the community edition.

Quote
1. If the community finds bugs, will Rapid-I take action? Or can the community submit solutions that will be incorporated by Rapid-I? Please let us know what your strategy is here. If you stop support, and certainly I am NOT suggesting this, then possibly a fork would be the way to go. Still, I don´t think this would be ideal to anyone midterm.

This is indeed a very important question.  However, RapidMiner will indeed continue to support also the Community Edition also with respect to bug fixing.  We will actively fix major bugs (“showstoppers”) and will review and embed community submissions where applicable.  We will, however, not continue to add or implement any kind of feature request for all older versions or minor bugs.  We hope that we found with this policy a good balance between giving users reason to upgrade to the new version and / or becoming our customers while we are still supporting the community of users of the open source version by ensuring that most severe bugs will be removed.

Quote
2. If the community creates extensions to RM 5, can these still be submitted to the marketplace? We actually submitted a request recently (free of charge contribution) and the feedback was that this was already incorporated in RM 6 (?)... Therefore my question.

Yes, the community can still submit extensions to the Marketplace.  From my technical understanding, those extensions developer for RM 5 should be supported also by RM 6 in most cases (a few rare cases with a lot of class loader “tuning” might be problematic though).  That means that extensions can be used within RapidMiner 5 and RapidMiner 6.  We will try to keep compatibility also for future versions.

Quote
3. we are using RM and for a number of projects I think that your personal commercial offer could fit. Again, can you please explain somewhere what the exact differences are between the various flavours, ideally with the whole licensing agreement?  I am willing to bet for a free RM version that what is on the web are not the only differences. If yes, I will commit to buy the personal version within the next three months...

I would actually suggest to reach out to our sales team (sales@rapidminer.com) to get this type of explanation.  Usually a quick conversation should be enough to answer these and similar questions.

Quote
4. Could you say anything about compatibility between RM 5 and RM 6? Some of our projects may not be compatible with RM6 licensing (connections to  GPL3 processes, financially, ...). So, anything you can say about this... We could be in a situation where we have to support both versions, or standardize on just one...

Technically, all processes built within RapidMiner 5 should be fully compatible and working with RapidMiner 6.  We always did a quite good job in maintaining compatibility (already at the “drastic” changes between 4 and 5 and even more since we have introduced the compatibility levels for single operators – a feature not even our large commercial competitors offer…) but for RM 6 this was even better in my opinion.  I personally did not encounter any compatibility issue so far and neither did anybody from our consulting team.

Quote
5. will it be possible to adapt (legally..) the code in RM6, let´s say enterprise edition? I.e. is there a right to modify?

Yes and No.  You will have access to large parts of the code and the core of RapidMiner is actually licensed under an open source license (and those parts can be adapted and changed in theory) but you won’t have access to the complete code and you won’t have the right to legally modify it.

Hope those answers have helped.


@ Swapnil

Also thanks to you for your nice words and great comments.  I think you are spot on with them and fully understood the motivation.

It is indeed correct that we wanted to achieve two goals: 

Goal No 1 was to get rid of the functional differences between the editions.  All users should have access to all features, not only a small group of customers.  And eventually, everything should become open source and not just some core.  This is why we embraced the business source model of Monty Widenius so much – it really supported this while at the same we adapted it in a sense that we offered even a free version (“free” as in “free beer” at least) in parallel (Starter).

Goal No 2 was to offer a feature-rich platform for evaluation and for smaller projects, but as soon as things become more serious or the user switch to production mode, there should be stronger reasons to establish a commercial agreement with RapidMiner.  That is exactly what you said with

Quote
Pricing comes into place when these processes or code are used in a business deployment to gain a business benefit.

Although there can never be a perfect differentiator, we analyzed a lot of data ourselves to find out what are the best differentiators between “evaluation mode” and “production mode” with RapidMiner.  It turned out that memory usage and data sources are the two most simple but also strongest factors here.  One alone unfortunately did not cover enough cases so we had to implement them both.  Since we are all analysts I am sure you understand ;-)

By the way, there are indeed other vendors in the broader analytics space who only differentiate by data source, e.g. Tableau. And I fully agree with your assessment that the industry is moving there:

Quote
Also appreciate your policy of charging for computing power and on period basis, which is completely consistent with service oriented pricing rather than license oriented one that the  industry is turning to.

And finally a last comment on the data source restriction when it comes to Proofs of Contepts (PoCs). For exactly the reason of doing PoC projects for customers, we also offered the free trial of the Professional edition in addition to the Starter edition.  The trial is time-limited but this should be ok for proving the point (“Yes, RM can work on your database”).  Hope this better explains why we “invented” the editions like they are today.


Thanks again for your comments and questions. Those are extremely helpful to understand our users better!

Best,
Ingo
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swapnilad
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« Reply #24 on: November 28, 2013, 04:42:41 AM »

Hi Ingo,

Thanks for the detailed reply. Appreciate your rationale.

If you permit, I have one quick query which I missed before

I noticed in the previous licensing, there was a option for OEM kind of license which can be taken in discussion with your sales team.
Do you still have path available ?

Thanks again.

Swapnil
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Magick
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« Reply #25 on: December 01, 2013, 12:24:35 PM »

Hi

I apologize if these questions have already been asked, but I have not seen it clearly stated anywhere.

Is RapidMiner still open source?
Will future versions of rapidminer be open source?
If not, will paying the 1000 euro give access to the source code?

Can we fork RM 5 and make our own version?
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Ingo Mierswa
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« Reply #26 on: December 01, 2013, 05:38:48 PM »

Hi,

Please find the answers inline below:

Quote
I noticed in the previous licensing, there was a option for OEM kind of license which can be taken in discussion with your sales team.
Do you still have path available ?

Yes.  Please just reach out to our sales team who are happy to help you with an OEM license for RapidMiner.


Quote
Is RapidMiner still open source?

RapidMiner is now available under "business source".  For more information see our blog post at

http://rapidminer.com/2013/11/06/the-core-of-rapidminer-is-open-source/

Business source has many of the advantages of open source models without the disadvantage that certain features are only available for paying customers. And eventually everything, not just a core, will be open source for everyone. In fact, this model is superior to our previous open core model for all parties:  the community is getting a more feature-rich platform and an open source version with a time-delay, customers are getting easy to understand benefits immediately, and with this differentiation RapidMiner can support both our paying customers as well as our user community much better than before.


Quote
Will future versions of rapidminer be open source?

Yes, this is an integral part of the "business source" model (see above). Whenever we release a new major version, all previous versions become open source. This is now true for RapidMiner 5 and previous versions, and also RapidMiner 6 will become available under the AGPL v3 as soon as RapidMiner 7 will be released.

You can find more information in the discussion above, but also at

http://rapidminer.com/2013/11/23/options-community-users/

and at

http://rapid-i.com/rapidforum/index.php/topic,7405.0.html

Best,
Ingo

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dcarissimi
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« Reply #27 on: January 13, 2014, 09:53:50 PM »

A lot of dialogue here....

First - a $1k leap to the newer version is too expensive for me who has a data mining budget of $0.  Very sad that the database connectivity option could just be sold as a module.  Who the heck uses just spreadsheet or text files with the ton of data around nowadays. All my data is in db's.

Second - When version 6 goes to the community edition after the release of version 7, are all the features like db connectivity enabled?  Or will the community version for 6 be locked down like it is now?  I assume its all unlocked.

Thank you.
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Marco Boeck
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« Reply #28 on: January 14, 2014, 10:20:26 AM »

Hi,

once RM Studio 7 is released, everything in version 6 will be unlocked (including all data sources).

Regards,
Marco
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imwaldverirrt
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« Reply #29 on: May 26, 2014, 01:49:19 PM »

Hey there,

I am a new user and just thuoght of the licensing stuff.
Currently I'm using RM5.3. Can I continue using it as long as I want and am I still allowed to use it in a commercial environment?
Are there ANY limitations (Ram, CPU power etc) with it or are they only limited in the latest RM6?
So if there are NO limitations concerning hardware and licensing, I will continue to use RM5.3...

Thanks in advance
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